Ministry with South Asians: an Interview with Rev Ajay More. # 184. 10/12/2024.

Out of Many, One People

Welcome. ‘Sharing Good Practice’ is a very important but often neglected dimension in the church’s ministry in a culturally diverse society, which I hope this blog will do more of. So I am very grateful to Ajay for sharing his thoughts and experiences in the vital area of ministry to South Asians.

Ministry with South Asians: an Interview with Rev Ajay More.

Ajay More (pronounced Moray) is associate vicar of St John, Greenhill, Harrow and leads a Bishops Mission Order (BMO) Hindi/English speaking church plant in Kingsbury, Harrow.

Ajay, can you tell us something about yourself and your background?

I am married to a wonderful wife, Kavita, and we have two children, Abhishek (age 24) and Arpita (age 20). I was born and brought up in a Christian family in India. My mother had a great affection and passion for Christ. She used to go to different areas of the town, gather children, teach them Christian choruses, and tell them stories of Jesus. Now, whenever I go back to India and preach in local churches, people say that what I am doing is because of my mother’s good works (blessings). They also say that her work and service had a profound impact on their own children.

How I came into ministry is a long story. In the past, while living in India, a couple of organisations had invited me to be a minister. However, I always thought I should get an education, a respectable job, settle myself and then think about coming into ministry. Yet, I was always found in the church, leading worship, teaching, getting involved in evangelism and other activities in the church. I was passionately serving Christ, but I was not mature enough to see that God may be calling me for full-time ministry. I finished my Microbiology degree (B.Sc.) and worked in Wanless Hospital, Miraj (a Christian mission hospital), for ten years. As it was a Mission Hospital, it had a Chapel where I used to lead worship, spiritual groups, conduct choirs and preach regularly. The director of the institution called me once and asked me to go for religious training to become a Chaplain for the hospital. However, before that, I thought that I still needed to build my career, which had just begun. Similarly, my local church also invited me to go for theological studies, but my answer was the same.

Later on, I married Kavita, who was based in London. God brought this wonderful woman into my life, and that is how I came to the UK. How we met and decided to marry is a wonderful story for another time. After our marriage, I came to London and my life was completely changed. It was a huge, but a good change for me. Here, I completed my B.Sc. Nursing and started working with the NHS. But very soon I found myself in the same old pattern: doing a secular job, and in my free time being involved in St James Church, Alperton. Like my previous spiritual mentors in India, Rev John Root (Vicar of St James at the time) and the team, also sensed the calling on my life and suggested that I should go for the discernment process. My situation at this time was quite different. By this point I was settled and had achieved what I wanted in my life. Prayerfully, I decided to give it a go. The discernment process gave me a peace of mind and plenty of time and opportunity to self-reflect, and I was sent to the Bishops Advisory Pannel (BAP), and came out of it successfully, ready to start my theological training in 2011 at St. Mellitus college, London. In 2014, I was ordained at St. Paul’s Cathedral, and now I serve as an ordained Anglican priest. I would like to take this opportunity to thank all my colleagues, mentors, teachers and vicars, who aided me in the process.

What advice would you give about how churches can be effective in welcoming and including South Asian people?

For more than five years I have been working as an associate vicar at St. John's Church, Greenhill, Harrow. I did my curacy at St James, Alperton, and then an additional year at St Stephens, Ealing. In my recent ministry, I have seen that God has used me as a bridge to connect people from a South Asian background to the mainline (Church of England) church. Whilst some of the South Asian people that come here are good at English, most of them are not. So, for the majority, communication becomes an issue as many of them are shy/quiet in nature and can easily get intimidated in an English-speaking context. These people will take time to open up or speak up for themselves. They generally remain quiet and reserved due to the lack of English knowledge. Many times, you have to encourage them repeatedly to get involved in church activities or to speak up on their opinions on particular matters, as it takes time to make them feel comfortable enough to open up. Along with the language barrier there are other elements that add to their fear, such as a lack of understanding of the local culture and values. So, very few have the confidence and ability to survive in the church on their own, and only a handful feel able to take up major responsibilities in the church, such as becoming PCC members, wardens, or treasurers.

When one South Asian person attends a church and begins to feel comfortable, they invite other people, who invite even more and very quickly a small community is formed in the church. When you continue to encourage them, give them confidence and attention, they will flourish and slowly get involved into the church life. If they feel unwelcomed or ignored, they may leave the church, or they will not get too involved. Trust is especially important here, as it is in every context. Once you gain their trust things become more easy. It can be a big job which needs a lot of patience, understanding and empowerment. It is not meant for every minister to work with the South Asian community, because it needs a lot of resilience and understanding. I have seen some ministers struggling in this context in spite of being called to minister to a South Asian community. We must remember that the first generation of this community will always struggle and find it hard to integrate into the main church body. However, their children, the second generation, will find it much easier to do so. So, we as a church have to be patient with first-generation immigrants and sometimes need to give them their space if needed. When they get settled, their children will get an opportunity to grow in a church environment, which increases the chances of them being absorbed into the main line church.

Can you say a bit more about the mistakes that churches and church leaders can make and how things can go wrong.

The church does not have to necessarily make big mistakes to lose people. Something such as ignoring them, can be enough to drive them away from the church. South Asian people require a lot of attention, and so you have to regularly communicate with them, inviting them to take part in church activities. They are not likely to express their opinions or give suggestions on any matter unless they are asked, because their cultural values and communication methods are different. However, once you gain their trust, they will be more confident to do things on their own or with a group.

A minister or church leader would need to spend time with them. This could be done by inviting them to your place or attending their personal events, as they are likely to have plenty of occasions aside from the church services. Your fellowship is important, and as you spend time with them you will learn more about them. One should remember that South Asian culture is very vast and greatly varies from place to place. This means not every individual’s cultural background will be the same, and so misconceptions can easily be made when interacting with them.

South Asian Christians in the UK have come from a country that has Hindu/Muslim majorities, and many are suppressed or marginalised in several ways. That is why sometimes some of them may have strong opinions on certain matters, due to their individual experiences. If this is misunderstood, they may come across as judgemental or intolerant, making it challenging for the church to work with them. In such cases, it is vital to listen to them and provide reassurance.

Another potential mistake is that we do not see enough South Asians being empowered in churches. The minister should be able to take a risk here by giving them roles of responsibility in the church. This could involve, getting them on the PCC or adding them to church rotas. They do not necessarily have to be very capable at the beginning, but handing allocated responsibilities will increase their confidence and sense of acceptance within the church. Initially, it may not seem as efficient as expected, but this small investment will create big growth opportunities for the church.

Since I have arrived at St John, Greenhill, my presence has attracted quite a few South Asians, and their representation in the church has increased. This shows that empowering South Asian men and women, will attract more of them, and this will have a good impact on the church.

Let us talk about the BMO church you lead, which has services in Hindi.

I am thankful to Bishop Lusa Nsenga-Ngoy (Bishop of Willesden), and our Archdeacon Catherine Pickford (Archdeacon of Northolt), who invited me to look after Naya Jivan (New Life) church, Bishop’s Mission Order (BMO), at Kingsbury, in December 2022. Most of the congregants of Naya Jivan church are first generation migrants and have come from a non-Christian background. In South Asian countries, religion is a key aspect of life for all faith groups. Regardless of whether you live a religious life or not, identifying with a particular faith is very important. In such contexts, when a family member(s) leave their ancestors’ faith (convert) and start following different practises, it becomes an extremely sensitive and significant issue. There is not much recognition for individualism in South Asian countries, the way we have in the West. When someone decides to become a Christian, entire family and community relationships get disturbed by the one person’s decision and all areas of their life are impacted.

So, when these people come to us, we, as the church have a bigger responsibility to look after them in their vulnerable situations. These are the early days of their journey where they are most in need of encouragement and support. If the church makes the mistake of ignoring them, it is likely that many of them may revert back to their old practises and turn away from the Lord. I personally, have known a few instances where this occurred, where people have gone back to their previous faiths as they felt that they were not supported enough. Therefore, listening to and helping newcomers is very crucial for the church. This is not a short-term matter, but rather a journey that takes many years of effort to maintain.

The people of Naya Jivan church face difficulties on a regular basis. For example, whenever there is a cultural celebration in their community, there is tension within the family as many things from their previous faiths and celebrations, contradict with their new way of life. South Asian culture is full of rituals and practises, due to which, on those occasions the Naya Jivan family members come under tremendous pressure to take part in specific things at particular events.

So, they look to us for support and guidance. Those advising them in the church, should do it with care and sensitivity when suggesting what to do/not to do. This can be difficult for church leaders who have limited cultural understanding. Therefore, consulting and involving Christians with the same South Asian background is advisable.

I am passionate about working with these people and would like to aid them in every way possible. They remind me of my ancestors, who must have gone through the same difficulties when accepting the Lord, Jesus Christ. I always wonder what they must have faced and how strong they had to be to continue their journey with Christ against all odds. They had to pay a huge price personally, socially, and economically, but still remained faithful to the Lord. So, when new believers share their concerns with me, I listen with great care and attention before advising them on any matters. When I feel as though I cannot support them adequately, I seek additional advice from other experienced South Asian leaders.

When advising new believers, it is always a good practice to ask them what they personally think about their given situation. For example, I have a friend, Anil, who accepted Christ in 2008 and with whom I am journeying with for the last 16 years. Once, during the early days of his journey he said, “I’m not comfortable with the religious items in my home, from my previous faith.” I had never spoken to him about this or asked him to get rid of them. I simply listened to him carefully and asked: “If you feel as if these aren’t good, what do you think you should do?” He himself said, “I think I will get rid of them.” I told him if that is what makes him comfortable then he should do it. He then asked me how he should do this. Again, I asked him what he thinks, and then he told me how he would want to remove them. Rather than telling him what to do, I made sure that he thought the answers for himself, before taking action. If I had told him to remove them before he had time to properly reflect on it, he might have become confused or suspicious about me and might have stopped talking to me or even ended our friendship. By giving him enough time to think things through, he could make his own decisions and act on it confidently. Here, I was simply journeying with him and supporting him when and where he needed.

So, I think when we walk along with such people, we should not rush or impose things on them because they are dealing with having to contradict their life long standing values and practises. There should be no fear or doubt in their mind that you are trying to convert or pressure them to do something which they are not comfortable with. There is a popular misconception in many non-Christian South Asian minds, that Christians either trick innocent people or pay substantial amounts of money to convert them to Christianity. Our job is to be with them on their journey and facilitate the fellowship of Christ and of the Holy Spirit. Once they have that fellowship, they will know what is right and what is not, rather than us telling them.

In the preliminary stages of their journey, you will see many non-Christian practises in their lives, and it becomes quite easy for those guiding them to point out things that may be ungodly or not right. However, this can have contradictory results. So, it would be wise to give them time to self-reflect and pray for the Holy Spirit to guide them in their situations. This kind of journey takes time and needs patience. I have been working with Anil for the last 16 years. However, he still looks to me from time to time for spiritual assistance and support, because every now and then there is a new situation in his wider family or community.

What other ministry with South Asian people are you involved with?

Alongside working with the Anglican Church, I am working with people from a Gujarati and Marathi community. I am also involved in an online Marathi prayer group, called Jesus is Our Victory (JOV). During the COVID period, our friends, Raj and Sofia and a few other Marathi families, felt that we should gather online and pray. They approached and requested me to guide the spiritual aspect of the group. This started in March 2020, with four to five families and then grew over the period of time. We used to have around thirty families (more than a hundred and fifty people) attending this online prayer from various parts of the UK, as well as from USA, the Middle East and India. During the COVID lock down period we met online every day, but as the situation improved, we reduced it down to three times a week, and currently we meet once a week to maintain that fellowship. This has benefited our children as they have managed to connect with other Marathi youth throughout the UK. This has allowed them to make new friends who also know the Lord. They have managed to create a young Christian community through this online group, known as ‘The Lights’, and now go on trips, hold Christian youth events, and meet regularly to worship together. Recently, we had a marriage ceremony in our community, where the individuals had met previously on our youth meetings. Who knows, in this way, others may also find their life partners through this growing network. We hold annual gatherings and plan retreats, where we come together to learn from the Word of God and worship together. As a result of this, JOV has become an instrumental platform for the Marathi community, where people of all ages can connect with each other from different parts of the World. I am amazed and blessed to see how God has utilised me in forming and sustaining this group.

There is a lot of debate about ‘homogeneous units,’ people meeting together from the same ethnic group over against being an intercultural church. So how do you see a specific group like the Marathi Fellowship relating to local churches?

As mentioned earlier, JOV is an online community, and the members of this group are from various parts of the UK and not from one specific geographical area. Most of them are working with the NHS or in IT departments. They are members of their own local churches - Anglican, Baptist, Methodist, and Charismatic. There is a great thirst in the first migrant generation to meet, catch up with friends and be in their own context. More than anything else, they desire to worship in their native language. This is why we come together to encourage one another, share joy, have fun, and worship. We have never felt the need to form a parallel church to the mainline church, as all of us have successfully integrated into our own respective churches where God has placed us.

About the BMO congregation, what do you see in the future in terms of eventually merging with English language churches?

Whenever I see the people of Naya Jivan church, I see them as souls that God has chosen for his Kingdom. Most of them are first generation migrants and come from a non-Christian background that do not speak/understand English at all, or very well. This affects their confidence in communicating and interacting in an English context. Therefore, I presume that merging Naya Jivan Church with an English language church would be a slow process. However, if you give them space for themselves, they can grow in confidence and thrive, making a merge more attainable.

We also have a second generation growing in Naya Jivan Church. These children have been born and brought up in the UK and have no issues speaking English due to being raised in a Western context. They need to be nurtured as they are our hope in eventually merging Naya Jivan with the main line church. To help this process, despite it being a Hindi service, from time to time, we do include English songs in our worship, and most of our sermons are preached in English and translated into Hindi. In doing this, the next generation is likely to become more confident and equipped to make a smoother transition to an English language church or intercultural space.

Overall, I presume that it will be possible to eventually merge Naya Jivan church with an English language church, but the process will take a number of years in this particular instance, because of the linguistic and cultural limitations involved. However, there are also other existing South Asian groups, such as JOV, that are able to fit themselves comfortably into intercultural spaces and English churches with no issues at all.

This shows that the ability to merge with an English language church can vary between different churches, their contexts, and their groups. It is important to know what kind of groups and individuals with whom you are dealing. You can find both good and bad examples of merging. So, to achieve this successfully, this process has to be done prayerfully and with care, otherwise it can have adverse outcomes. To avoid this, we should give people enough time in their transitions, rather than rushing them through it.

Finally, I would like to point out that it is just as important to note that, not only is it about how well-prepared a BMO/language church is to merge, but also about how ready and equipped the English language church is, to accept and accommodate them.

How serious a problem is racism?

First of all, we should accept that racism is everywhere and not just a problem in the UK. I am from India and have seen racism in many separate places. For example, as a South Asian, you may experience it particularly more if you go to any Middle Eastern country. I have heard first hand stories from people I know. The point I am making is that inequality and racism is everywhere, and I do not think that the West is immune to it.

On the contrary, I have personally witnessed more fairness in the UK. The progress which I have made here, would not have been possible without it. In my twenty-five years of staying here, I have experienced four to five incidents of what I believe was racism. Overall, I did not experience major injustice because of my ethnicity. The UK is perceived to be one of the more reasonable places in the world, otherwise thousands of people would not be risking their lives to come to the UK.

However, undoubtedly there are people who have experienced racial injustice here, and their voices must be heard. Everyone’s journey is important, and everybody is entitled to say what they have seen or experienced. It is important to note however, that sometimes people do play the racial injustice card, victimising themselves to avoid consequences. In summary, although the UK is a seemingly just place, there is still racism, and we need to tackle it with honesty and fairness.

In the Church of England, how far do you think there is racism?

As mentioned above, I have not experienced significant racism personally anywhere in the UK, including within the Church of England. I have many positive personal stories of being empowered in the church.

I would say, however, from a South Asian perspective, if you look at the NHS, national political parties, and the local councils, you see a great representation of South Asian people, which I personally do not see in the Church of England. We are certainly making some progress in higher offices, but we do not see that same empowerment on a local parish church level. For example, you can still find PCC’s which have no people of colour involved. So, church leaders need to be encouraged to include more people from diverse cultural backgrounds to shoulder small, as well as big responsibilities in the church. They may not be great at the job at first, but they will learn, and most importantly their involvement will certainly encourage others to come forward. For example, since I have completed my theological training and become an ordained minister, there are at least six South Asian people I know, who took inspiration from my journey, and now they are on their path to ordination, pursuing their theological studies in various parts of the UK.

To conclude, I would like to thank you, John, for giving me this opportunity. I hope my journey continues to inspire other South Asian brothers and sisters.