Confounding the Mighty: Stories of Church, Social Class and Solidarity Kindle Edition
by Luke Larner (Author) and think it is very good as it's one of the first collections where the intersections of ethnicity, social class, gender and other factors are considered theologically and in terms of implications for the church. Very much in the tradition of Ken Leech...
I think the problem with flagging up marriage and parenting as a major driver of differnces in outcomes is that it pushes the discussion back onto individual morality. There are so many structural factors that push back against stable relationships, economic precariousness, housing and employment pressures, the cost of weddings (even church fees for them) as well as the cultural stuff of instant personal gratification. In ethnic diversity there are also different models of marriage and family life, including the history of slaveru and colonialism, the caste and honour syste,, arranged marriages and dowries, patriarchal assumptions all of which can bring unhealthy features into marriage and family life and make lifelong marriage seem unattractive. Is their really a universal pattern for Christian marriage and family life - behond a call to faithfullness and self giving love?
In urban and estate churches...whether superdiverse or mainly white working class, there is a big issue here around theology and Christian etihcs.. or is it just church culture... One of our local churches has stopped a divorced woman who is getting together with a new partner from being a Sunday school teacher. Meanwhile in our parish we have just recognized ttwo ALMs living in households where they are not married and have children from earlier partners... But we delight in their growing faith, and their evident gifts.. and that their current relationships seem more stable, caring and loving than previous ones and many in the local estate. And some of our pastoral work has been about supporting women (including local Muslim women) in ending abusive and violent relationships.
Hi Greg, Thanks for this. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond and raise serious questions.
My response: wood and trees. Yes, there are very powerful economic, social and cultural factors that make marriage seem understandably either unattractive or unsustainable. And that making grand moral generalisations as I have done is in deep tension with finding appropriate pastoral responses to the actual complexities of people's lives, which I have often had to struggle with and usually felt uneasy about my responses (both whether they have been too rigid or too liberal). And there are varied cultural patterns - all open to distortion and abuse. BUT, I think the basic structure of wife + husband > children for life is both the logic of scripture (with high profile deviations along the way) and is vindicated at the sociological level, by a) the increasing mass of statistical evidence that stable two-parenting produces a whole range of positive outcomes that are squandered were that pattern is lost; b) evidently high marriage ethnic minorities (Chinese, South Asian) lead to much more positive outcomes for children than in low marriage social groups, not least poor whites. The correlations are so strong I think it is hard to avoid saying they are causative.
'Individual morality' and 'structural factors' interact. Moral behaviour is powerfully influenced by cultural structures - simply the media (esp music & tv) profits because adultery garners a lot more attention than monogamy. Cornell West responded to Thomas Sowell's conservative argument that the corroding effects of black culture led caused negative social and economic outcomes for black people by pointing out this was caused by unbridled media capitalism. Can such corrosion be countered by good individual choices? Work hard at school, go to college, get a job, get married, have children is the mantra of black conservative educationalists in the USA & the Michaela Academy here. Will it stem the tide? I admit it doesn't look promising - but God's people are called to think, work and especially pray.
A few reflections from my experience:
* as a curate we grew a large children's/youth work in large part fro 5-7 children hard working intact Caribbean families. Insofar as I have had several glimpses over the past 50 yrs of how those young people have fared the outcome is depressing with broken marriages, separation fro children etc. I think the impact of hedonistic culture has been damaging (live the life you love, to quote).
* there have been several marriages recently of 30ish Sri Lankans from my old church in Alperton. It is highly likely they will have children who will flourish and contribute significantly to our society.
* 'We weren't in love when we married but we are now' - a Pakistani Christian about his arranged marriage.
* a young black woman in Tottenham enquiring about the baptism of her second child, by a different father (who was an immoral individual.) It is hard not to think that the future life chances of that mother and her children won't be bleak.
I cannot do justice to your rich and detailed essay. You are onto the truth of the matter. My quibbles, and they are quibbles, go to word choice. Prejudice and bigotry at the individual level seem more fundamental to solving the problem than abstract words like "structural," and "institutional racism." Individual choices are more central in the year 2023 than systematic analysis. Thank you for this essay, a nice contribution to the public square.
I've just been reading this
Confounding the Mighty: Stories of Church, Social Class and Solidarity Kindle Edition
by Luke Larner (Author) and think it is very good as it's one of the first collections where the intersections of ethnicity, social class, gender and other factors are considered theologically and in terms of implications for the church. Very much in the tradition of Ken Leech...
I think the problem with flagging up marriage and parenting as a major driver of differnces in outcomes is that it pushes the discussion back onto individual morality. There are so many structural factors that push back against stable relationships, economic precariousness, housing and employment pressures, the cost of weddings (even church fees for them) as well as the cultural stuff of instant personal gratification. In ethnic diversity there are also different models of marriage and family life, including the history of slaveru and colonialism, the caste and honour syste,, arranged marriages and dowries, patriarchal assumptions all of which can bring unhealthy features into marriage and family life and make lifelong marriage seem unattractive. Is their really a universal pattern for Christian marriage and family life - behond a call to faithfullness and self giving love?
In urban and estate churches...whether superdiverse or mainly white working class, there is a big issue here around theology and Christian etihcs.. or is it just church culture... One of our local churches has stopped a divorced woman who is getting together with a new partner from being a Sunday school teacher. Meanwhile in our parish we have just recognized ttwo ALMs living in households where they are not married and have children from earlier partners... But we delight in their growing faith, and their evident gifts.. and that their current relationships seem more stable, caring and loving than previous ones and many in the local estate. And some of our pastoral work has been about supporting women (including local Muslim women) in ending abusive and violent relationships.
Hi Greg, Thanks for this. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond and raise serious questions.
My response: wood and trees. Yes, there are very powerful economic, social and cultural factors that make marriage seem understandably either unattractive or unsustainable. And that making grand moral generalisations as I have done is in deep tension with finding appropriate pastoral responses to the actual complexities of people's lives, which I have often had to struggle with and usually felt uneasy about my responses (both whether they have been too rigid or too liberal). And there are varied cultural patterns - all open to distortion and abuse. BUT, I think the basic structure of wife + husband > children for life is both the logic of scripture (with high profile deviations along the way) and is vindicated at the sociological level, by a) the increasing mass of statistical evidence that stable two-parenting produces a whole range of positive outcomes that are squandered were that pattern is lost; b) evidently high marriage ethnic minorities (Chinese, South Asian) lead to much more positive outcomes for children than in low marriage social groups, not least poor whites. The correlations are so strong I think it is hard to avoid saying they are causative.
'Individual morality' and 'structural factors' interact. Moral behaviour is powerfully influenced by cultural structures - simply the media (esp music & tv) profits because adultery garners a lot more attention than monogamy. Cornell West responded to Thomas Sowell's conservative argument that the corroding effects of black culture led caused negative social and economic outcomes for black people by pointing out this was caused by unbridled media capitalism. Can such corrosion be countered by good individual choices? Work hard at school, go to college, get a job, get married, have children is the mantra of black conservative educationalists in the USA & the Michaela Academy here. Will it stem the tide? I admit it doesn't look promising - but God's people are called to think, work and especially pray.
A few reflections from my experience:
* as a curate we grew a large children's/youth work in large part fro 5-7 children hard working intact Caribbean families. Insofar as I have had several glimpses over the past 50 yrs of how those young people have fared the outcome is depressing with broken marriages, separation fro children etc. I think the impact of hedonistic culture has been damaging (live the life you love, to quote).
* there have been several marriages recently of 30ish Sri Lankans from my old church in Alperton. It is highly likely they will have children who will flourish and contribute significantly to our society.
* 'We weren't in love when we married but we are now' - a Pakistani Christian about his arranged marriage.
* a young black woman in Tottenham enquiring about the baptism of her second child, by a different father (who was an immoral individual.) It is hard not to think that the future life chances of that mother and her children won't be bleak.
Thanks again for your comments. John
I cannot do justice to your rich and detailed essay. You are onto the truth of the matter. My quibbles, and they are quibbles, go to word choice. Prejudice and bigotry at the individual level seem more fundamental to solving the problem than abstract words like "structural," and "institutional racism." Individual choices are more central in the year 2023 than systematic analysis. Thank you for this essay, a nice contribution to the public square.